Gossip, Slander, and Privacy

Since the publication

of the article about Dave Ramsey and Ramsey Solutions in Religion News Service (and many related articles) that shared a portion of my statement, I’ve had to rapidly process some of my experiences with them.

Untangling the manipulation, gaslighting, and spiritual abuse I experienced from multiple Ramsey Solutions board members via phone calls, in person, and over email, has been incredibly difficult. Add to that the hypocrisy I observed and continue to observe in a self-described “ministry” and it creates cognitive dissonance that requires therapy. Writing also helps. So does the validation from heartbreakingly similar stories that flood my inbox from ex-employees and their spouses.

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[Read background: My Statement Regarding Ramsey Solutions]

[Read updates: Where are the Shepherds?, Update on My Statement Re: Ramsey Solutions]

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One issue involves the Ramsey Solutions rule about gossip and how it doesn’t seem to apply to Dave Ramsey himself when he gossips about me or others. Another is how a company can normalize the violation of people’s privacy – their employees and their families and even third parties, and how they violated mine.

Is this just sour grapes?

You might ask – why are you writing about this? Is this just sour grapes or some vendetta against Dave?

1. This is a justice issue for employees. They can get fired for a spouse’s minor comment that questions or disagrees with Dave Ramsey, after it gets reported back to the company by loyalists (The idea that spouses and former employees are reporting back to a company should disturb you. That is not normal or healthy). But these same rules, supposedly rooted in Biblical principles, do not seem to apply to the boss.
2. This is a gospel testimony issue. We must hold self-proclaimed Christian leaders accountable for rank hypocrisy, no matter their power or influence, arguably even more so when they have power and influence (James 3:1). It deceives people, manipulates them, and is antithetical to the gospel. That it happened to me particularly is painful, yes, but I care more about the example it sets to my kids and yours and to people who don’t yet know Jesus and see this behavior lauded by pastors.
3. This is a healthy behavior issue. The unhealthy and controlling behaviors I and others have experienced are very similar to what occurs in abusive relationships. Ramsey Solutions exports their practices through programs and events and also currently has curriculum in my children’s high schools and maybe yours as well, giving them credibility. That affects many people and makes it important to identify things that are unhealthy and shouldn’t be copied by children or adults (for example, the sarcastic, aggressive, and harassing email response to reporter Bob Smietana).

This is important.

Let’s talk for a minute about Dave Ramsey’s rule about gossip and how that plays out differently for employees (and spouses or former spouses like me) versus Dave himself.

Gossip at Ramsey Solutions

The definition of gossip at Ramsey Solutions (I in no way endorse this as the Biblical definition of gossip) is “discussing anything negative with someone who can’t help solve the problem.”

That’s the definition of “gossip” Dave Ramsey uses in his business, and since they purport to operate based on biblical principles, it’s a safe assumption that they believe they’re drawing that from the Bible and would apply that to themselves personally as well.

Dave Ramsey admits to firing people for gossip. In fact, he says, “I will fire your butt for this” and “You WILL leave this building.” Not only that, he goes so far to say in some videos, “You’re the enemy” and “everyone seems to agree with this idea.”

He indeed fired two employees recently when spouses said fairly innocuous things (on a private FB thread and at a private dinner party) about COVID-19 and the wisdom of Ramsey Solutions’ response to it. So Dave Ramsey considers THAT gossip.

He also recommends this practice to companies that pay thousands of dollars to attend seminars sponsored by Ramsey Solutions like EntreLeadership. So this is touted as a best practice that will help your company. Not just to oppose gossip, but to oppose gossip like THEY do.

But as you’ll hear in the above video starting at 2:56, his opposition to gossip is actually rooted in his toxic brand of loyalty. “You’re disloyal. And when I give you money to operate inside this organization and then you tear this very organization down, that makes you a thief.”

Summary of Dave Ramsey’s take on gossip:

1. Gossip = negatives to people who can’t do anything to solve the problem
2. Rooted in a demand for loyalty
3. This is a good practice that other companies should follow

So does this apply to Dave himself or is he exempt?

Dave Ramsey’s Gossip and Slander

Below is an audio of Dave talking in front of a company staff meeting (approximately 800 people) that was included in the RNS article. After defending three abusive pastors (Bill Hybels, Mark Driscoll, and Perry Noble) and a neighborhood arsonist, maligning sexual abuse victims and suggesting that coming forward about an abuser is un-Biblical, he turns to my marriage and me at 22:30.

Dave Ramsey states, after an introduction that people shouldn’t believe things they hear, that my ex-husband (present at the meeting) and I were going through a “really nasty divorce.”

Does he tell the company about every employee’s divorce? No. Every leader’s divorce? No. He does not.

So why not only tell the whole company that we’re getting divorced, but also characterize it as a “really nasty divorce”? According to his definition of gossip, this sounds pretty much like a negative that employees can’t do anything about.

Maybe so they’d dismiss any information they heard?

Then at 22:55, he tells the entire company that I came into the Ramsey Solutions office five days before my then husband’s second book tour was to begin (it was actually 16 days; Dave’s characterization of a much shorter time frame is intentional – to underscore leadership as being in a severe bind on what to do and excuse any missteps they might have to acknowledge). He states that I “demanded very angrily” to see him. As I noted in my statement, at no time did I “demand very angrily” to see him.

1. That’s two lies (quite possibly slander)
2. That also sounds a lot like negative information those people couldn’t solve = GOSSIP

Dave Ramsey goes on to say at 23:57 when discussing my divorce, “there are no angels in this story.” What impression is that intended to leave with his employees?

Nasty divorce… no angels… suggests equal bad behavior. Don’t believe things people say… reporting is bad… higher value is to defend abusers over victims.

The impression he leaves is that I, a non-employee, was equally at fault in an employee divorce that he is discussing from a stage to his entire company. I certainly don’t claim to be perfect, but I do believe I acted with integrity and grace in my marriage and in my interactions with them. So Dave Ramsey’s claims to 800 people, some of whom I considered my friends before I felt ghosted after this meeting, is the height of hypocrisy given what he knew to be true.

It is also GOSSIP.

So the next time you hear Dave Ramsey rail against gossip, remember that his rule doesn’t seem to apply to him.

Violation of Privacy

In my jaw dropping over the willingness of Dave Ramsey to gossip about and slander me to his entire company, I glossed over a more fundamental breach – a complete violation of my privacy.

There’s a reason it was so easy for me to overlook a violation of my privacy.

Employee families are groomed from the interview process on to accept violations of normal, healthy boundaries by Ramsey Solutions, to accept invasions into the privacy of their lives, their families, their beliefs, and their finances.

It’s similar in many ways to an abusive relationship. Small at first, no big deal, you want the job. It’s like a frog in a pot.

In his book EntreLeadership, Dave Ramsey calls the advice to interview a candidate with their spouse maybe “the best advice in this whole book.” He notes that one reason is to see whether the candidate is “married to crazy.”

There are several disturbing implications here. First, how do you know whether or not they have a spouse? Asking about marital status or even the name of your spouse can be legally problematic according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). However, even assuming it’s not crossing legal boundaries making it to the spousal interview, issues remain:

1. Spouses of the interviewer often ask questions that are legally problematic or are designed to get information in a roundabout way, such as about pregnancy, children, the work status of a spouse, etc. I know this from my own experience as well as from others.
2. The suggestion that they’re attempting to weed out “crazy spouses” looks remarkably like sowing distrust in spouses who may be more observant of unhealthy practices because they aren’t swimming in the kool-aid.

This is clear by the anecdote that Dave Ramsey gives in his book about a spouse who refused to participate in the spousal interview. He describes her refusal as laced with yelling and profanity, but given that he described my own actions as angry and demanding when I know clearly they weren’t, I’m more inclined to believe that the woman merely set firm, healthy boundaries in her refusal, as I did. He characterizes such healthy boundaries as “crazy.”

Dave Ramsey also notes in EntreLeadership that they require prospective employees to submit their personal family budget as part of the hiring process, “to make sure that they could live on what we were paying for that position.”

This is both paternalistic and potentially legally problematic. First, this is treating adults like children. They should be making this judgment for themselves. But this perspective is so normalized in the culture at Ramsey Solutions there they make you feel like you should be thankful for their care and concern.

But do your own parents monitor your budget and tell you what you can and can’t afford once you’re an adult? (Maybe in your twenties, but hopefully not, and again that would be your actual parent.) Or do they practice healthy boundaries and allow you to consider your options, make decisions, offer advice, and sometimes, let you fail? The paternalism involved in this Ramsey Solutions hiring practice creates a culture of “father knows best,” with the (god)father being Dave Ramsey, and can result in unhealthy dependence and deference.

Does any other employer do this? Any other financial company? Not that I know of. Not because Ramsey Solutions is unique and special, but because it is unhealthy and violating.

Why do they have a right to know your spouse’s income? Even asking about your spouse’s employment status, which would clearly show as income in a family budget, is a legal issue identified by the EEOC.

Why do they think they have a right to know what you spend on school or savings? This is an unhealthy level of information and control for an employer to require.

Demanding Therapy and Elder Reports

As I note in my statement, Ramsey Solutions wanted to send my then husband and I to marriage counseling and to get full, real-time reports, not only from the marriage counselor and personal therapists, but also from our church’s elders. Let that sink in.

They expected our church elders to REPORT TO THEM.

As if Ramsey Solutions were the authority. The spiritual authority. The moral authority. The mental health authority. Which they indeed thought they were.

They get away with it because they cloak it in Jesus. “We love you and we love Jesus, so let us inside your finances, your marriage, your church, your social life….” Does your church ask for your budget? No. Does your church ask for reports from your counselors? No. Or they shouldn’t, anyway. If they do, they just might be a cult.

So back to my privacy. Besides Dave Ramsey’s speech involving gossip and slander, why does Dave Ramsey think he has the right to talk about my personal life to 800 employees? And why would employees be fine to sit there and listen to this information?

Because unhealthy boundary violations are part of the company’s fabric and they train you to accept it from the moment you start interviewing.

Just because someone has nothing to hide (I don’t), doesn’t mean you want the painful parts of our life strewn across an all-employee staff meeting of a company you yourself have never even worked for. Can you imagine your spouse’s company announcing your divorce or other personal, painful information to their entire company, much less lying about it?

I hope at least some of the Ramsey Solutions employees in the audience thought “Whoa! This is really inappropriate. I can’t believe he’s telling us this.” Or after re-hearing it now in the recording from the RNS article. But I’ve not heard that from any current employees, including from people there I considered friends.

Summary: Dave Ramsey, who rails against gossip by his employees, especially gossip that somehow implies that his company is not perfect, who also says in his book EntreLeadership, “never publically (sic) harm or embarrass people while over-sharing about problems”:

1. Violated my privacy to over 800 employees
2. Gossiped about me
3. Lied about my actions

Refusal to Take Responsibility

Many have asked the question – Have I received an apology or ownership of their behavior or the damage it caused? Either in the two years since these events or since the article was published?

No, I have not received any kind of apology from Dave Ramsey or anyone in leadership at Ramsey Solutions for these actions, much less for the controlling and abusive behavior that I describe in my statement and otherwise occurred. No apology, no changed behavior, no accountability. This is despite reproaches brought and the public statements by myself and others. There has been no ownership of their actions.

The refusal to take responsibly for their actions should be no surprise considering the email response to the RNS reporter Bob Smietana and the audio above where Dave Ramsey essentially declared it un-Christian for the many sexual/spiritual abuse victims of predator pastor Bill Hybels to tell the truth publicly about what he had done to them.

The email to Bob Smietana and the audio where Dave Ramsey blames everyone from the victims, to church elders, to liberal snowflakes for the consequences befalling abusers is called blame-shifting and is a common tactic of abusers.

The basis of abuse is the mis-assignment of responsibility – placing blame on others for your emotions, your behavior, and their consequences.

I’ll reiterate from my statement that although I believe these unhealthy and harmful actions need to be exposed, I hold no malice toward Dave Ramsey or Ramsey Solutions. I take my sadness and trauma to the Lord every single day.

My continued hope is that the individuals involved will reflect, repent, turn away from these behaviors, and repair the damage they have done to me and many others. The email response to Bob Smietana gave me little hope in that, as God reminds us to watch the fruit, not the fruit of organizations – which don’t receive salvation, but the fruit of repentance or otherwise of individuals, each of whom are accountable to Him.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:8-9